* The following discussion has been transferred from my forum as the forum is being retired. The main page for the dictionary project is www.dictionary.JustLocal.com.au. If you wish to check the spelling of a word visit Word Check.*
Hi,
This topic only applies to the Kelvin version of the Australian English dictionary. Both the words programme and program will continue to be in the full version of the Australian English dictionary.
I am currently reviewing whether or not "programme" should remain in the Kelvin version of the dictionary.
According to the Australian Oxford and Macquarie dictionaries I use as an authoritative reference, in Australia it appears program is now the primary spelling.
I am reluctant to change the Kelvin version as I feel programme is used in situations such as a concert programme, and program is used for computer program.
Although I personally am hazy as to whether it should be TV program or TV programme, but my personal preference would be TV program.
NOTE: This change will only apply to the Kelvin version of the dictionary.
I welcome other's thoughts.
- Kelvin
Post by Janina Simons
ReplyDeleteKeep both - I did a bit of looking around as I am sure Kevin did,
All had variations on programme most stating US used program
Wiktionary description gave me a smile -so here it is
Programme
Alternative spellings program (see usage note below)
programme (plural programmes)
1. A set of structured activities. - Our programme for today’s exercise class includes swimming and jogging.
2 .A leaflet listing information about a play, game or other activity.
3. A performance of a show or other broadcast on radio or television. - Tonight’s programme was sponsored by the Wiktionary dictionary and Wikipedia encyclopedia.
4. A particular mindset or method of doing things. - Come on, John, why don’t you get with the programme and tell him where the detonators are? - Ellis in the movie Die Hard.
Usage notes
The spelling programme is a 19th-century Frenchified version of program, which first appeared in Scotland in the 17th century and is the only spelling normally found in the U.S. The Oxford English Dictionary entry, written around 1908 and listing both spellings, said program was preferable, since it conformed to the usual representation of the Greek as in anagram, diagram, telegram etc. In British English, program is the common spelling for computer programs, but for other meanings programme is used. In Australia, program has been endorsed by government style for all senses since the 1960s, although programme is also common. In Canada both are used, although program prevails; the Canadian Oxford Dictionary makes no meaning-based distinction between it and programme, and many Canadian government documents use programme in all senses of the word also to match the spelling of the French equivalent. In the U.S., programme is occasionally used for sense 2, in an effort to appear exotic.
Post by Kelvin Eldridge
ReplyDeleteHi Oliver and Janina,
Looks like one each way so far.
Wiktionary is a great resource and I did enjoy the information.
One thing with Wiktionary I keep in mind it is not considered an authoritative resource. Many of the resources on the Internet I also consider to be international and may or may not apply to Australia.
I've chosen the Oxford Australian English dictionary and the Macquarie Concise dictionary as authoritative references. Whilst they don't always agree, I've found them to be very helpful.
Both indicate the primary spelling is now program.
I'm like everyone else. Once I get set in my ways and it is hard to change. I really feel I now have to bite the bullet so to speak, change to program and accept the spelling has evolved in Australia.
It is good to see others are in the same boat as myself.
Your feedback prods me to remember I have to keep in mind my aim with the Kelvin version is to provide a prescriptive spell check dictionary to aid others with the predominant spelling of a word in Australia.
Both spelling variations will of course remain in the full version of the dictionary.
Post by Kelvin Eldridge
ReplyDeleteHi,
I've decided to make this post a poll so others can vote.
I am still undecided.
I personally use programme and program at this point in time having thought I understood the difference.
However when I checked the authoritative dictionaries it appeared I was wrong and program is the preferred spelling.
However does that mean the authoritative dictionaries are right.
It may be that Australians are confused as I was. It may be that we are influenced by the large amount of overseas writing influencing our culture.
I will for the time being keep both programme and program in the Kelvin version of the dictionary file.
Have a vote and let me know what you think. I am interested in finding out.
Post by Richard Morrison
ReplyDeleteI reckon the two words can live on happily together.
As in "theatre programme"
and as "computer program".
However close their root meanings were, the two have diverged somewhat over the past 50 years, to the point of being almost separate concepts.
As the computer/internet world is dominated by the Silicon Valley Californian Hyperspace culture, "program" will continue to create confusion among spellers who haven't considered the difference.
There is no true need to extinguish programme from Australian English, as I still see it used in various contexts, and is by no means disappearing from "world" english.
A quick comparative search count on Google demonstrates this!
Post by Renée Barber
ReplyDeleteHi there Everyone
First of all, I'd like to thank Kelvin for introducing me to both his fantastic exclude file and this forum. There have been some great insights and comments and I look forward to reading and contributing to the discussion.
Now, at the risk of being stoned, linguistically speaking, I am an American by birth and an Editor/Desktop Publisher/Marketer by trade. I don't have nearly enough reference books, but the ones I have seem to be in agreement that program is the standard form.
One of my favourites, and probably the most thorough, is contained in this discussion by Pam Peters in: The Cambridge Australian English Style Guide.
Quote:
Program is the standard spelling in the USA, and the one adopted in Australia by the Australian Government Style Manual and the Macquarie Dictionary (1991) for all uses of the word. In Britain program is reserved by many for computer uses, and programme applied in all other contexts. This distinction is also made by some Australians, certain influential educational institutions, and parts of the ABC. In the Australian ACE database there are close to 175 instances of noncomputer use of program compared to 60 of programme.
In fact program was endorsed by the original Oxford Dictionary on two grounds:
1. It was the earlier spelling, used in the word's first recorded appearances in (Scottish) English in the seventeenth century, while the spelling programme makes it[s] appearance in the nineteenth century. (We may speculate on whether it was motivated by the desire to 'improve' the Scots or simply an example of 'frenchification') ...
2. It is analogous with anagram, diagram, histogram, radiogram, telegram, etc., while there are no analogies for programme. (p 613)
End Quote
Personally, I believe this is a strong foundation for discontinuing blaming Americans for this one. Quite clearly, we should blame the French.
Post by Ben Harrison
ReplyDeleteI have spent a number of years as a geologist designing and executing exploration programmes, but when I took some years 'off' to be a computer programmer I wrote programs. Buggered if I know why I made that distinction!
Now I'm a firm believer in programme, but I'll happily take both forms. Actually I'm really only likely to use program when it relates to computers, otherwise it's programme.
For the purpose of the Kelvin dictionary which aims to provide the preferred spelling in Australia, the word programme is not included in the Kelvin dictionary. The preferred spelling in Australia is program.
ReplyDeleteThe Sydney Morning Herald has not used the spelling 'programme' in over 30 years, I understand. For people who cleave to 'gramme' etc the choice will be easy. Simpler is better. I'm not sure why we haven't at the same time adopted the US 'cigaret'.
ReplyDeleteNot that the SMH is in any way perfect ...
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI believe the Australian language is evolving as all languages do. If people wish to use "cigaret" it will happen. To me isn't about copying the American language. What will be, will be.
Kelvin
I believe that programme will go the way of the dodo bird, and i think it has all to do with computer spell checkers and ease of rememberance when you speak program to say pro-gram, not pro-gram-me and the spelling of "program" (as stated was around 200-300 years before the spelling of "programme" an it is my opinion that the BRITTISH changed it just to annoy the French, with whom they were at war during those centuries.
ReplyDelete